Diário do gato de Schrödinger: LPO e Powerlifting

[Lucas, o Schrödinger 10777]

18 horas atrás, Mklek disse:

 

 

Salve!

 

Qualquer ajuda é bem vinda, já que não entendo nada desse troço! 

 

Mas como sou metido a besta, vou escrever o que acho: no exemplo que vc mostrou, o cara agacha pra se colocar debaixo da barra pq a carga está bem pesada. ACHO que com uma carga mais leve a gente tende a jogar a barra numa posição mais alta e dá pra pegá-la agachando - e não já agachado. Vc deve ter achado meu movimento esquisito pela falta de fluidez, que faz parecer dois movimentos separados. Pra ilustrar, segue gif do site exrx:

 

http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/OlympicLifts/Clean.gif

 

Dá pra perceber que ela agacha depois de já ter se colocado embaixo da barra.

 

Enfim, alguém entendido se pronuncie aí!

 

Abraços 

[R.U.M. 1958]

Sei lá man. A barra subiu tanto que não havia necessidade de descer... Até a subida, tudo ok. A ideia do squat clean é: você se joga em baixo da barra arremessada e sobe ela na força bruta do tronco + pernas. Com uma carga pesada, a barra vai subir no máximo até a altura dos mamilos ou por aí. 

 

De qualquer forma, usa essa mesma carga para variações que exijam mais da velocidade e potência (power clean, hang clean) e para o clean completo, sobe a carga e fica lá pelas 1~3 reps.

 

Aliás, esquece isso. Nem recomendo se jogar direto no clean completo pesado assim. Dá um medo da porra. Testa uns clean pulls por umas semanas antes e pra uma carga 3RM neles você pega 90% disso e testa singles do squat clean. Acho que fica mais tranquilo.

 

E não deixe de fazer front squat, alta frequência neles. Front squat > back squat. Abraço!

 

 

[Lucas, o Schrödinger 10777]

24/03/2016 - Cleans

 

A .Cleans (ou quase isso) 8x2x40kg - A ideia aqui era realmente treinar a técnica do bagulho, mas deu uma suadeira boa.

B1. Press 3x10x40kg - sempre colocando a barra no local a partir de um power clean.

B2. Chin-ups 3x10xBW

 

E foi só. Os vídeos tão três posts atrás pra quem quiser ver a esquisitice e dar umas boas risadas.

 

Depois do banho o cotovelo sentiu um pouco. Nada demais, mas já ligou um alerta.

 

Nesse fim de semana eu vou tentar fazer algum WOD girls, só pq tá na moda aqui no fórum e só pra compensar as calorias consumidas na páscoa. De repente um Cindy. Se quiserem dar sugestões de algum que não envolva corrida... 

 

Abraços

[Ricardo Queiroz 5757]

Barbara, Cindy, Angie. Chelsea, Nicole... todas essas safadas usam movimentos básicos e não necessitam de peso...

Murph, Severin são 2 bons hero para fazer que também não necessitam de nada além da vontade de querer participar. Do mais... segue o link que o @R.U.M. colocou lá no meu diário: http://www.wodboard.com/benchmarks só escolher o wod que quiser e ser feliz

 

[R.U.M. 1958]

Vai de Fran. Facinho.

[Ricardo Queiroz 5757]

Em 23/03/2016 at 11:42, Shrödinger disse:

Segue texto do Greg Nuckols sobre o supino. Achei bem interessante! @EctoBeast, de repente vale a pena dar uma olhada  

 

  Ocultar conteúdo

 

6 months ago, I didn't fully understand how important technique was for the bench press performance.

Don't get me wrong, I knew it played a role.  I certainly knew that retracting your shoulder blades could help keep your shoulders healthy.  I knew that getting an arch and good leg drive could help you lift a little more weight.

But I didn't quite understand how much of a difference one particular tweak could make:  optimizing your bar path.

I had a consultation client who was driving me crazy.  We'll call him Chris.

Chris came from a bodybuilding background, and he wanted to get his bench up to compete in powerlifting.  He wasn't driving me crazy through any fault of his own – nice guy, hard worker, and just an all-around great client.  He was driving me crazy because on paper, he should have been benching WAY more than he was.  Chris was your prototypical bencher:  short arms, big chest, and super jacked.  His setup was solid.  He didn't have any nagging injuries.  But his bench was way lower than it should have been.  He certainly wasn't a BAD bencher – he had a 300lb bench at 195, which is respectable – but everything about him screamed that he should be good for 350+.

We did some troubleshooting, trying out slightly different setups, adjusting his program, etc.  Three months later, his bench had gone up... to 305.

I knew I had to be missing something.  I watched a bunch of videos from world record bench presses, trying to find the one thing they had in common that Chris was lacking.  I eventually noticed that they started their presses by driving the bar up and back toward their throat (instead of straight up initially), and then finished the press with a vertical bar path.  I didn't think adjusting bar path would make that big of a difference (you're pushing the bar the same distance, after all), but I figured that it was at least worth seeing if it would make a difference.

Since Chris came from a bodybuilding background, he was used to touching the bar high on his chest and pushing it in basically a straight line.  After switching to powerlifting, he started touching the bar lower on his chest, but he still started the press by driving the bar straight up instead of up and back toward his face (like I saw from the world records).

I told him to try driving the bar up and back when he reversed it (instead of straight up), and to tell me how it felt.

He said it felt weird to him because he wasn't used to it, but he still hit a small 5rm PR.  A month later, he was benching 330.  Today (6 months later), his PR is 355.

This intrigued me, so I started digging.  For a long time, I couldn't find a good answer for why altering the bar path helped so much (plenty of people have offered opinions, of course, but I like solid answers).

Recently, however, I came across an old book (from the '80s) called Bench Press More Now:  Breakthroughs in Biomechanics and Training Methods.

Generally I wouldn't pay much attention to a book with a title like that ("Bench press more now"?  Are you kidding me?  Someone clearly aced Selling False Hope 101), but one thing jumped out at me:  the author.

Dr. Thomas McLaughlin, who happens to be one of my all-time favorite researchers.

It's a shame that more lifters don't know of the work that came out of McLaughlin's lab at Auburn.  From the late '70s through the '80s, they published a lot of very good, very applicable studies on powerlifting.  McLaughlin and several of his research partners were nationally ranked powerlifters, and they gathered a lot of their data from the best source imaginable if you want to understand elite powerlifting performance:  high-level powerlifting meets.  In several of their studies, they wouldn't include a lifter's data unless they were ranked in the top 10 in their weight class, and in one particularly amusing example from a squat study, their "low skill" group included lifters who squatted 620 at 242 and 550 at 193 (their "high skill" group included only national champions).

I found a copy of McLaughlin's book and read it cover-to-cover.

It finally helped me figure out why adjusting Chris's bar path helped so much.

At its core, the book is based on several studies that compared the bench press technique of world-class benchers to the bench press technique of "novice" benchers with maximal loads (their novices still benched 224 at 170, on average, and would be considered "well-trained" by the standards of a lot of studies).

McLaughlin found that both the novice benchers and the elite benchers lowered the bar using a similar pattern:  roughly a straight line, arcing out slightly.  However, their bar paths during the press itself differed drastically.  The novice lifters pushed the bar back up in roughly the same pattern they'd lowered it – pressing almost straight up initially, with the bar then moving up and back more toward the top half of the lift (like Chris).  The elite lifters followed the opposite pattern – they initially pressed the bar up and back at the start of the lift, and finished the lift by pressing the bar almost straight up toward the top half of the lift (like the world record lifts I'd watched).



What's more, when he looked at elite lifters who'd improved their performance over time (since he collected data at all the major meets over a 4-year period), and compared them to elite lifters whose performance had stalled, he saw the same trend.  Elite lifters who hadn't improved their bench numbers used roughly the same bar path every year, while elite lifters whose bench numbers continued to rise pushed the bar back toward their face to start the press more and more as their lifts improved.  Even more interesting:  the maximum force they applied to the bar barely changed.  They may have gotten a little stronger, but most of their bench progress could be attributed to technique improvements.

This matched what I'd seen, but I didn't entirely understand why it worked so well.  I've looked into it more, though, and now the reasons are crystal clear.  I'll spare you the details here (emails aren't conducive to explaining 3-dimensional geometry with a dash of trig), because I'm working on an article right now that will dive into this topic in more depth, but the basic gist is this: optimizing your bar path can dramatically reduce the demands placed on the muscles that cross the shoulder (like your pecs and anterior deltoids) without affecting the demands placed on the triceps to a meaningful degree.

This means that you can lift more weight with less effort.

How much more weight?

Obviously it varies person-to-person, but McLaughlin's work gives us some hints about the sort of increase you can expect.

McLaughlin found that the elite benchers had a ~10% gap between how much they could bench and the maximal force they could produce at any point in the movement.  For novice benchers, that gap was 35%!



In other words, if the novice lifters' bench stroke was as efficient as the elite lifters' (remember, the elite lifters he observed over time lifted more and more weight due to technique improvements with minimal changes in maximum force), they could reasonably expect to add 25% to their bench without actually getting any stronger if they could get the 35% gap between max force and performance down to the 10% gap seen in the elite lifters.  In theory, they should be able to bench ~275 instead of ~225, just by adopting a more efficient bar path.

Of course, you can't expect that 25% to show up over night (with Chris, it was 16.7% in 6 months, which is still very solid progress).  It takes a while for a new groove to feel comfortable, and a new technique may expose some hidden weaknesses that an old technique was masking.  However, there's still a lot of potential strength you can unlock through simply correcting your bar path.

___________________________

Want more bench press tips?
 

About 6 months ago, we sent out a survey to ask people what sorts of problems they were having with their training.

One of the questions was, "Which lift would you like to improve the most?"

Roughly 65% of people said bench press. We hear ya, and we've got some great bench press content coming out in the next few days. 

There are a lot of other cool tricks, tips for optimizing and troubleshooting your setup, and information on how to diagnose and correct weaknesses that I want to share with you. If you're really interested in learning all you can, or if you are currently having problems with your bench press, we're hosting a bench press online seminar this weekend as part of the Lifting Lyceum series.You can learn more and register here. 

 

 

Lucas, sobre isto...

Saiu isso aqui, o Greg disse que escreveria um artigo sobre e escreveu =D

http://strengtheory.com/bench-press-bar-path/

 

PS.: Dar logo summon no povo... @debew @EctoBeast @R.U.M. @Kinko_RO @Mklek

Editado Março 25, 2016 às 08:24 por Ricardo Queiroz

[EctoBeast 656]

Em 23/03/2016 at 11:42, Shrödinger disse:

Segue texto do Greg Nuckols sobre o supino. Achei bem interessante! @EctoBeast, de repente vale a pena dar uma olhada  

 

  Mostrar conteúdo oculto

 

6 months ago, I didn't fully understand how important technique was for the bench press performance.

Don't get me wrong, I knew it played a role.  I certainly knew that retracting your shoulder blades could help keep your shoulders healthy.  I knew that getting an arch and good leg drive could help you lift a little more weight.

But I didn't quite understand how much of a difference one particular tweak could make:  optimizing your bar path.

I had a consultation client who was driving me crazy.  We'll call him Chris.

Chris came from a bodybuilding background, and he wanted to get his bench up to compete in powerlifting.  He wasn't driving me crazy through any fault of his own – nice guy, hard worker, and just an all-around great client.  He was driving me crazy because on paper, he should have been benching WAY more than he was.  Chris was your prototypical bencher:  short arms, big chest, and super jacked.  His setup was solid.  He didn't have any nagging injuries.  But his bench was way lower than it should have been.  He certainly wasn't a BAD bencher – he had a 300lb bench at 195, which is respectable – but everything about him screamed that he should be good for 350+.

We did some troubleshooting, trying out slightly different setups, adjusting his program, etc.  Three months later, his bench had gone up... to 305.

I knew I had to be missing something.  I watched a bunch of videos from world record bench presses, trying to find the one thing they had in common that Chris was lacking.  I eventually noticed that they started their presses by driving the bar up and back toward their throat (instead of straight up initially), and then finished the press with a vertical bar path.  I didn't think adjusting bar path would make that big of a difference (you're pushing the bar the same distance, after all), but I figured that it was at least worth seeing if it would make a difference.

Since Chris came from a bodybuilding background, he was used to touching the bar high on his chest and pushing it in basically a straight line.  After switching to powerlifting, he started touching the bar lower on his chest, but he still started the press by driving the bar straight up instead of up and back toward his face (like I saw from the world records).

I told him to try driving the bar up and back when he reversed it (instead of straight up), and to tell me how it felt.

He said it felt weird to him because he wasn't used to it, but he still hit a small 5rm PR.  A month later, he was benching 330.  Today (6 months later), his PR is 355.

This intrigued me, so I started digging.  For a long time, I couldn't find a good answer for why altering the bar path helped so much (plenty of people have offered opinions, of course, but I like solid answers).

Recently, however, I came across an old book (from the '80s) called Bench Press More Now:  Breakthroughs in Biomechanics and Training Methods.

Generally I wouldn't pay much attention to a book with a title like that ("Bench press more now"?  Are you kidding me?  Someone clearly aced Selling False Hope 101), but one thing jumped out at me:  the author.

Dr. Thomas McLaughlin, who happens to be one of my all-time favorite researchers.

It's a shame that more lifters don't know of the work that came out of McLaughlin's lab at Auburn.  From the late '70s through the '80s, they published a lot of very good, very applicable studies on powerlifting.  McLaughlin and several of his research partners were nationally ranked powerlifters, and they gathered a lot of their data from the best source imaginable if you want to understand elite powerlifting performance:  high-level powerlifting meets.  In several of their studies, they wouldn't include a lifter's data unless they were ranked in the top 10 in their weight class, and in one particularly amusing example from a squat study, their "low skill" group included lifters who squatted 620 at 242 and 550 at 193 (their "high skill" group included only national champions).

I found a copy of McLaughlin's book and read it cover-to-cover.

It finally helped me figure out why adjusting Chris's bar path helped so much.

At its core, the book is based on several studies that compared the bench press technique of world-class benchers to the bench press technique of "novice" benchers with maximal loads (their novices still benched 224 at 170, on average, and would be considered "well-trained" by the standards of a lot of studies).

McLaughlin found that both the novice benchers and the elite benchers lowered the bar using a similar pattern:  roughly a straight line, arcing out slightly.  However, their bar paths during the press itself differed drastically.  The novice lifters pushed the bar back up in roughly the same pattern they'd lowered it – pressing almost straight up initially, with the bar then moving up and back more toward the top half of the lift (like Chris).  The elite lifters followed the opposite pattern – they initially pressed the bar up and back at the start of the lift, and finished the lift by pressing the bar almost straight up toward the top half of the lift (like the world record lifts I'd watched).



What's more, when he looked at elite lifters who'd improved their performance over time (since he collected data at all the major meets over a 4-year period), and compared them to elite lifters whose performance had stalled, he saw the same trend.  Elite lifters who hadn't improved their bench numbers used roughly the same bar path every year, while elite lifters whose bench numbers continued to rise pushed the bar back toward their face to start the press more and more as their lifts improved.  Even more interesting:  the maximum force they applied to the bar barely changed.  They may have gotten a little stronger, but most of their bench progress could be attributed to technique improvements.

This matched what I'd seen, but I didn't entirely understand why it worked so well.  I've looked into it more, though, and now the reasons are crystal clear.  I'll spare you the details here (emails aren't conducive to explaining 3-dimensional geometry with a dash of trig), because I'm working on an article right now that will dive into this topic in more depth, but the basic gist is this: optimizing your bar path can dramatically reduce the demands placed on the muscles that cross the shoulder (like your pecs and anterior deltoids) without affecting the demands placed on the triceps to a meaningful degree.

This means that you can lift more weight with less effort.

How much more weight?

Obviously it varies person-to-person, but McLaughlin's work gives us some hints about the sort of increase you can expect.

McLaughlin found that the elite benchers had a ~10% gap between how much they could bench and the maximal force they could produce at any point in the movement.  For novice benchers, that gap was 35%!



In other words, if the novice lifters' bench stroke was as efficient as the elite lifters' (remember, the elite lifters he observed over time lifted more and more weight due to technique improvements with minimal changes in maximum force), they could reasonably expect to add 25% to their bench without actually getting any stronger if they could get the 35% gap between max force and performance down to the 10% gap seen in the elite lifters.  In theory, they should be able to bench ~275 instead of ~225, just by adopting a more efficient bar path.

Of course, you can't expect that 25% to show up over night (with Chris, it was 16.7% in 6 months, which is still very solid progress).  It takes a while for a new groove to feel comfortable, and a new technique may expose some hidden weaknesses that an old technique was masking.  However, there's still a lot of potential strength you can unlock through simply correcting your bar path.

___________________________

Want more bench press tips?
 

About 6 months ago, we sent out a survey to ask people what sorts of problems they were having with their training.

One of the questions was, "Which lift would you like to improve the most?"

Roughly 65% of people said bench press. We hear ya, and we've got some great bench press content coming out in the next few days. 

There are a lot of other cool tricks, tips for optimizing and troubleshooting your setup, and information on how to diagnose and correct weaknesses that I want to share with you. If you're really interested in learning all you can, or if you are currently having problems with your bench press, we're hosting a bench press online seminar this weekend as part of the Lifting Lyceum series.You can learn more and register here. 

 

 

Acabei que só li isso hoje porque fiquei com preguiça do forum essa semana. Mas puta leitura essa. Já tinha lido algo similar num texto do Duffin mas ele não entra tão afundo na exposição da obra do McLaughlin, nesse texto o Nuckols expõe uns detalhes a mais. Por algum motivo eu não me lembro de ter aplicado o que o Duffin demonstrou no texto, erro meu evidentemente, mas vou tentar dar atenção maior a isso.

O texto do Duffin que é outra ótima leitura:http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/powerlifting/the-physics-of-the-bench-press-science-applied/

 

PS.: bom saber que tenho fama já de precisar melhorar meu BP hahaha 

[Lucas, o Schrödinger 10777]

58 minutos atrás, EctoBeast disse:

PS.: bom saber que tenho fama já de precisar melhorar meu BP hahaha 

 

kkkkkk

 

Acho que vc deixa bem claro nos seus relatos que quer melhorar! Além do mais, suas marcas de agacho e terra são incompatíveis com as do supino mesmo. #prontofalei

 

Abração

[Lucas, o Schrödinger 10777]

Vi um vídeo do Klokov sobre o clean, onde ele fala que não é pra jogar a barra lá em cima (como eu to fazendo). Bem grosseiramente, depois da tripla extensão e do "encolhimento", já deve-se agachar pra se colocar debaixo da barra - sem uma "remada alta". 

 

 

[Lucas, o Schrödinger 10777]

Hoje arrisquei uns snatches pela primeira vez. Segue videozin abaixo de um set de hang snatch:

 

 

@Ricardo Queiroz, vc q curte essa parada, que acha?